83. Anxiety’s Hidden Cost in School and Work (And What to Do About It) - with Dr. Jackie Parke
Episode 83
In this episode of the Learn and Work Smarter podcast, I interview Dr. Jackie Parke, founder of Through the Waters and a psychologist who specializes in helping teens and college students cope with anxiety. In this value-packed and emotional episode, Dr. Parke shares important insights that can help both students and professionals suffering from anxiety at school or work.
What You'll Learn:
The difference between stress, overwhelm, and clinical anxiety
Signs of anxiety and 4 factors that suggest it’s time to seek support
How anxiety impacts performance
Practical strategies to use in the moment when you feel anxiety creeping in
Multiple ways that students and professionals can access support, and what that looks like on a practical level
🔗 Resources + Episodes Mentioned:
SchoolHabits University (Parents, go here)
SchoolHabits University (Students, go here)
Never stop learning.
▶ ✏️Get my FREE parent training: How to Help Your Student Handle School Like a Pro — Without Study Frustration, Assignment Overwhelm, or All the Drama (If you’re the parent of a high school or college student, this training is for you.)
About Dr. Jackie Parke
Dr. Parke is a psychologist and founder of Through The Waters, an organization that helps teens and college students move forward with the next steps in their education, friendships, and future. Through The Waters provides expert-led online mental health programs, resources, and community for youth–accessible anytime, anywhere—including an online signature anxiety program called Peace To The People. As a psychologist, Dr. Parke has been serving students and their families since 2005 and has also served refugee youth in six countries.
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The following transcript was autogenerated and may contain some interesting and silly errors. But in the name of efficiency and productivity, I am choosing not to spend my time fixing them 😉
Well, hello and welcome to episode 83 of the Learn and Work Smarter podcast. This is one of my monthly expert interview episodes where I interview and industry expert related to the kinds of topics that we regularly talk about here on the show. Today I'm talking to Doctor Jackie Parke and our conversation is incredible. And more than that, it's important.
We're talking about anxiety and how it impacts performance in school and career. Doctor Parke shares some valuable insights for both students and professionals to better understand the difference between feeling overwhelmed and true anxiety disorders. How do you know when it's time to get help? How to get help? The impacts of not getting help, and some concrete strategies that you or a loved one can take right now to move past anxiety into a calmer, healthier place.
Doctor Parke is a psychologist and founder of Through the Waters, an organization that helps teens and college students move forward with the next steps in their education, friendships, and future. Through the waters provides expert led online mental health programs, resources, and community for youth that is accessible anytime, anywhere, including an online signature anxiety program called peace to the people.
As a psychologist, Doctor Parke has been serving students and their families since 2005 and has also served refugee youth in six countries. Remember, you can find all of the links mentioned in today's show, as well as a transcript of the entire episode at LearnandWork smarter.com/podcast/83. We have a lot to cover and I can't wait for you to meet Doctor Parke.
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So let's begin.
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Hello, you are listening to the Learn and Work Smarter podcast, the podcast for students and professionals who want to learn and work smarter. I'm your host, executive function coach, and founder of School habits.com Katie as of Ito. As a reminder, everything I mentioned in today's episode will be linked in the show notes, including a link to the transcript, which you can also find at Learn and Work smarter.com/podcast.
Well, hello there, doctor Jackie Parke. I am so excited to have you on the show.
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Thank you for joining me today. I think the conversation is going to be awesome for our listeners, who, I did just introduce you a few moments ago, but could you tell our listeners who you are, what you do, and why you're here today?
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Okay. So my name is doctor Jackie Parke as Katie mentioned. I'm a licensed psychologist and I specialize in working with teens and college students.
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I've been doing therapy with teens and college students since 2005, so that's longer than I want to admit. Katie. Okay, we don't need to do the math, but, I have had the honor and the joy of serving so many families in that time, as you can imagine. And in a past life, I also worked as a psychology professor on college campus for ten years.
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So I have a really deep empathy for what college students are going through, and the stress and anxiety that they face as well. Awesome. So, as you know, a lot of the listeners of our show, it's for, you know, students and working professionals and many of the strategies and the topics and the tactics I talk about in the show, executive functions, things like task management, time management, productivity...
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They're very useful and helpful. And they can, you know, really significantly change someone's path in in school and career. However, full disclaimer, and I know that you would agree, none of the strategies that I teach on this podcast will land if somebody is not in the right headspace to receive these kinds of strategies, to implement these strategies.
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And so I think the point of today's show is to shed light on anxiety and to shed light on some of the mental health struggles that our college students are facing, as well as our young professionals. And even if you're listening to this show and you are a seasoned professional, I know the strategies that Doctor Parke is going to share today are going to are going to be valuable, because if we take a step back and think about the the right state of mind and the right mental health that we need to have in place, that's the most important step.
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And then we can turn to task management, time management and all the tweaks that we talk about on the show. So I do want to start with our first question. And it's something that I part of this question is what I'm asked a lot about, in the show and I try to cover in various channels, is this concept of overwhelm.
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Students ask me all the time, what do I do when I'm overwhelmed and I'm, you know, what do I do when I'm overwhelmed with school or at work? But what I want to ask you is, what is the difference between our general variety overwhelm, and legitimate anxiety disorders?
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It's a great question to start with, because anxiety is such a major word that people are talking about right now, and I find that the more that we use the word, the less clear it becomes of like, what do we actually mean by that?
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And I appreciate you so much, Katie, because as I listen to your podcast, as I follow you on social media, and you did not ask me to say this, okay, people who are watching think the the tools that you're teaching students go hand in hand with what I'm trying to teach students. And I think we're very complementary in that way.
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So yes, we do need to get anxiety managed before we can learn something like executive functioning skills or study skills. But the reverse is also true, right? We're learning executive functioning skills and study habits helps to lower anxiety as well. So what's the difference? Like you said, between a general college overwhelm compared to legitimate anxiety disorders? And there really is a difference.
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And I'm going to share four factors that help us to distinguish this difference. Before I share those four factors, I really want to validate, what college students go through. And I want to validate that when we're in college, it's such a transitional time where we're processing so much about our own identity. What are we want to study?
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You know, we might be living away from our family or driving to a school that we haven't driven to on our own before. There's so much going on in transitions in terms of our friendships and dating life, and we're processing all these questions and decisions about what do I want to major in and what might I want to do after graduation.
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And then everybody's asking those questions. There's all this comparison with other people on campus. And in addition to that, college academically is such a different beast from high school.
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And I know that you help students with us all the time. And so I'm kind of preaching to the choir and telling you, but I'm just trying to be validating for anybody who's watching or listening to this that like, if you feel an astronomical sense of stress as a college student or as a working professional, that makes complete sense to me.
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And what we're talking about with this question is that there is a difference between feeling an astronomical level of stress
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and being able to navigate that with some support and support, compared to going through an astronomical level of stress with an anxiety disorder, or what I might call a clinical level of anxiety. So I mentioned there's four factors that help us tell the difference.
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The first factor is frequency. So how frequent is this anxiety for a student? I would say to the student, are you having more anxiety days than you're having non anxiety days? Are you having more days in your life, or you're having an anxiety meltdown or a breakdown compared to the days where you don't? And if the answer is trending towards yes, then we're concerned that there's a pattern of frequency there.
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So that's the first factors. Frequency. The second factor is intensity. How intense does the anxiety get? Does it get so intense that you can't focus, you can't concentrate, you can't study, you can't learn any new skills or new information because it gets so intense that it's like really physically debilitating in your body with how it's invaded your body, how physically uncomfortable it is.
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Have there been panic attacks? Are you unable to sleep or eat or to breathe? And if the answer is yes, then we're concerned about this second factor, that there's a pattern there of intensity. The third factor is duration, meaning how long lasting has been anxiety.
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Typically what we say with an anxiety disorder in general, it's going to last six months or more.
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I think
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for college students I would say has it been more than a semester, the semester usually four months, right. But that might be an easier way to think about it. Has this lasted more than a semester? Has this lasted more than 4 to 6 months? And if the answer is yes, then we'd be concerned that there's a pattern of duration there.
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And the fourth factor is impact. Has this anxiety been so severe that it's negatively impacting your friendships, your academic performance, other activities you're involved in? Like school, work or dating, family relationships and so on. And so then we're concerned that that fourth factor is present, which is intensity. So the more that someone is listening to what I say right now is saying yes, yes, yes and yes, there are higher concern.
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It would be about their their level of anxiety approaching what we would call a clinical level of anxiety. Wow. That is that is super helpful. So it's frequency duration, intensity and impact. Do they get those right. Okay. So if a student is listening to that and they've got three of those is that I mean is there a checklist where you're checking these off and if someone doesn't meet the fourth and they just have general overwhelm, how does that work? Yeah, I mean there's multiple different anxiety disorders. So that was me kind of synthesizing a way of thinking about is this serious or is this less concerning? I would say if someone goes back and listens to what I said for those four factors, and they're a yes for, let's say, two out of the four,
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really take that seriously and seek out some support and some hope.
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And through that process, you know, if they connect with a therapist, for example, like that therapist is going to help sort through, like how is this anxiety affecting you and how serious is it? And so that's part of a question that people bring to therapy. Right. Like sometimes students and parents are like, I don't know if it's serious enough yet to get help.
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And I'm biased because I'm a psychologist and I'm on the helping side of things. But I'm like, always err on the side of caution, always seek out help if you're concerned,
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especially if there's two or more of those factors that I just talked about. And if there's only one, you can take a wait and see approach. But there's no shame in seeking out help anyway.
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Certainly not. I want to talk about the fourth factor that you mentioned, the impact. And so on the show when we talk about executive functions, and
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executive functions are primarily regulated by the part of the brain called the prefrontal cortex. Right. And and people with ADHD and other neurodivergencies and it have
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differently developed prefrontal cortex is and, you know, there's a whole slew of factors that are involved in there.
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So that is a simplification. But quite literally, when the prefrontal cortex isn't,
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optimal, then the executive functions aren't optimal. And I know that stress you're going to be able to explain this so much more than me. But stress and anxiety and they're, you know, different also impact the prefrontal cortex.
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And so the impact if someone is experiencing extreme overwhelm or stress or full blown anxiety, that is quite literally preventing somebody's ability to learn.
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Am I right? Yes. Because the brain is just flooded. Right. So we think about like the higher order in the lower order brain and I don't want to get too technical because sometimes when I start talking about the brain, I know it's a no, it's good. My audience is smart and they like this. Yeah. They're very smart.
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Yeah. And so our reptilian brain, that is like, lower down in our brain stem and also fighting for our amygdala, where we process fear and we process a lot of our emotions. This is an oversimplification of the brain, but
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when we reach a really high, what I would call like a red zone level of stress. So like if it's from 1 to 10, where one is the lowest, in ten is the highest, the red zone being like 7 to 10, really up there
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we sometimes talk about it as fight or flight mode and or freeze or fawn.
But my brain is too overwhelmed to really do the executive functioning things like planning, organizing, and just executing in the way that we need to, making those judgments that we need to. And so we really do have to calm the brain before we can do that. You mentioned earlier sort of a chicken before the egg scenario.
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You didn't call it that. But it's what it is. That if someone has anxiety then they're
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less likely to be able to use their executive functions and their tools that they have at their disposal. But at the same time, if you have poorly developed executive functions, then you're going to experience greater anxiety. And so the chicken and the egg,
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so my, my job and from where I'm sitting here is I teach the executive function piece, which ideally in some cases can lower one's anxiety.
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But from your position, the, the angle that you take is, well, let's tackle the anxiety piece. So I really want to get into some nitty gritty strategies today.
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For students who I know there's no quick fix, there's no here's three ways and your anxiety disorder is gone. And I disclaimer here, neither Doctor Parke nor I are saying anything like that.
But for the students who are, maybe believing that they're suffering from some anxiety and they're kind of nodding their head along with this conversation so far, what are some signs that a student can maybe they feel in their body? Maybe if they're not quite sure they have full blown anxiety, but they're like, this is starting to feel really familiar. This is resonating.
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what what are the symptoms? Are there symptoms of their signs? Of course it could be grades. It could be, you know, disconnecting socially. But could you explore some of the symptoms a little bit just to give people a little more clarity?
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Absolutely. And I'm going to just list like multiple symptoms that are like possibilities here.
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And you know if people are listening they're like yes to some of these no to others. If these just take the yes’s seriously,
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and take those to heart and
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we'll talk to you about, you know, what can people do to think help. But,
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by all means, don't think you have to have all of these about what I'm going to say, but some signs that people would be looking for, like, in our body, I'll just share some of the things that students often tell me when I'm helping them with anxiety.
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So it could be muscle tension. And like sometimes people are like, my arms get so tense. Or I get this really tight spot in my neck. My stomach feels like I can't breathe or I'm hyperventilating, or you can't take the deepest breath
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for other students is that their heart is pounding, their palms are sweaty,
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they might feel nauseous.
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I feel like they have to run to the bathroom.
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Dizziness.
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Those are some of the body signs that we see. And it's different for everyone. Those are some of the in the moment. The patterns that we're most concerned about are things like being able to fall asleep or stay asleep,
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being able to have a healthy appetite, without feeling like you have no appetite or you're completely binge eating over eating to manage your anxiety.
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And some of the themes that students talk with me about, aside from what's in their body, is a lot of students talk about overthinking related to their anxiety and so
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there are patterns of overthinking and worry about
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really anything. Right? But especially as students as like GPA, grades, friendships. So one text that they got the time that they got and how to handle a conversation in their family
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and almost that they can't stop thinking about it. Another thing that I see a lot is self-doubt.
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So that goes along with imposter syndrome as well. Do I belong here on campus
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where is my place? Here? How do I find my people
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and all of the sense of inner insecurity that can come with that?
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And another one, a big one right now is perfectionism.
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And so this can show up for students
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as
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just having such a high level of self scrutiny about
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assignments and grades
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and overemphasis on output.
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In other words, the grade rather than the process, the effort that they put into an assignment, or even the time that they put in
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assignment.
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the main thing that I tend to work with people around is,
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breaking what we call the anxiety avoidance cycle. So a main
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close cousin slash frenemy, I guess I would say anxiety is avoidance.
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And so for a lot of people,
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they will avoid what is causing an anxiety, avoid what they fear. So that could be the email inbox. It could be the learning management system. It could be,
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you know, I've worked with students where they actually cannot set foot on campus because they're anxiety so severe and they can't sit through a class,
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or they can't walk up to someone and talk to them, whether it's like a fellow student or it's a teacher.
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And so anxiety will also cause us to avoid things. And when that starts to avalanche, that's when it's really causing problems. So we want to break that anxiety of learning cycle. There are also students who they're not necessarily avoiding with their anxiety, but they are doing all those things with a high level of so me,
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I feel really sad saying that just thinking of students that that I care about and I've worked with, but it's like they're white knuckling their way through
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college and they're just doing it with a high level of suffering, and it's exacting a toll on them, even though they're doing it.
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And they might look great on paper, or they might be
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very smart, very high achieving people, but it's just exacting such a high toll on them. And I hate to use the F-word on your podcast, but they're not having fun. Yeah, I was like, oh no. Clean show, clean show. Yeah. So put the explicit label on it. But they're not having fun.
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I think fun matters, right? It matters so much.
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But I think it's everything. Like, I believe that we should do hard things and face challenges. And it's not always going to be fun. But if someone is not having fun at all,
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I'm concerned about that.
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Interesting. You know, you just you reminded me when you were saying like the school avoidance, right?
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Or just avoidance in general, and sometimes they're not even setting foot on campus. And I
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can't tell you how many students that or even parents who have called, or students who I have worked with, you know, independently, who, you know, come to me at first and at first it seems like, you know, well,
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the grades are bad.
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And so they're coming to me for, you know, improving grades and maybe some systems for improving grades. And then just, you know, after a deeper conversation with the parents who are first, you know, few sessions, the grades are bad because the students aren't
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going to school
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and they're not going to school because their grades are so poor and they're so far behind that they're like, what's even the point of walking into class and sitting in the classroom when I don't even know what's being
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taught because I haven't been here?
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And then that just puts them further and further behind, like that avoidant cycle. And it's very from my perspective, the academic perspective, it is very hard to get out of that cycle. It starts with then being able to go to school, right, because they're going to fall further and further behind. But that is a really tough situation for our kids to be in, whether high school or at the college level.
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I think,
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in my experience, the high school teachers in that environment tend to be a little bit more supportive because you know you're there and you have the same teachers every day, and the whole schools are smaller and they're rallying behind you. But it's the college students who, when they find themselves in this situation,
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the perception is that there's less support there.
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You know, the teachers aren't. If you miss class, the professor is not calling you or calling your parent saying, hey, you missed class. You know, Mom and dad aren't getting a phone call so that their situation's a lot more challenging
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for these college students. And I, I was careful when I chose the word perception. The perception is that the supports aren't there
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in a college campus, in a college,
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environment.
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And I want to ask you, what is the next step if someone is listening to this and like, okay, I have really checked all the boxes now. Like, I'm not the F word. I'm not having that right. Like there's no fun going on here. I've checked four of their criteria. I have every physical symptom. You're right. I'm avoiding school.
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What is someone's most immediate step out?
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well, I would first say that to even recognize that you're having a hard time maybe listening to this conversation and reflecting on yourself and owning the fact that you're struggling, it might seem obvious to someone who's watching this or listening to this or that. They're like, yeah, I know I have anxiety.
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I think it's very humble to be able to say that and to acknowledge that you're struggling. And I also think that it takes a lot of courage to reach out for help. And so for anyone who's in that spot listening to us talk about this, like my, my love and my respect goes out to them because it's such a terrible spot to be in.
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And I do want to really emphasize what you said Katie in the sense that there are supports out there. I think when we get to college, it is, again, this transitional time where for some students, their parents can help them access help for other students. They're going to have to have a little bit more of a self-advocacy model muscle to connect with how.
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But there are supports available. So let's talk through some of the options. And I want people to think about this. Not like
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I have to find the perfect therapist who's going to be this, like Yoda figure who's going to drop these wisdom bombs. And that's going to change my life. And like, that's what I need.
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That is one option.
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That's not necessarily I think that's sort of the option that
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people assume everyone needs. And I don't actually agree with that. Even though I am a therapist and I love doing therapy and I love my therapy people, I want us to think about this more creatively and resourcefully and like a blended approach. So here's some options. So for students who are in college, who go to a college campus, a good first option to try is their college
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counseling center.
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And yes, there are a lot of students who are going to college counseling centers and so they tend to be swamped, and we are all aware of that. I still want students to try it. And as an option,
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and it might mean for some students, they need a parent to help them to reach out. Maybe they you know, I've had students where like a teacher helped them to actually reach out to the counseling center or a friend.
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And so those are ways of reaching out. And even if the counseling center has a waiting list, I want
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students to put themselves on the waiting list just in case. So don't be discouraged
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if there is a waiting list.
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You are just as important as anyone else, and you should put yourself on a waiting list.
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While you're on the waiting list, you should also explore some other options as well.
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So one option for students who have health insurance, and I know not everybody has health insurance,
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but for families who have that, typically, in my experience, it's typically the case that it's a parent who is calling the health insurance to ask for a referral for a therapist, or going to the health insurance website
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to find a provider.
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And students can do that as well.
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But typically, in my experience, it's a parent who's kind of exercising that muscle and helping
00:24:07:07 - 00:24:23:06
to that avenue. Don't get me started on all the barriers that the whole system creates for people who are seeking help. That's a whole other podcast. Okay, Katie, but, so I'm going to try not to gloss on that so that one might need the explicit label.
00:24:23:08 - 00:24:33:23
Yeah, that one will need to explicitly for that topic. I'm going to keep it clean I promise. So it's an extremely frustrating process. Typically.
00:24:33:23 - 00:24:39:16
But if families do have health insurance then you should try to use it because that's what it's there for.
00:24:39:16 - 00:24:40:06
And
00:24:40:06 - 00:24:44:15
depending on the health insurance plan, it will cover a certain number of sessions.
00:24:44:15 - 00:24:50:14
And so families also want to ask that question if a parent is calling as well, how many sessions do you care?
00:24:50:14 - 00:25:00:12
So another option is to go to a website. And the link is Psychology today.com. And this is a website that people commonly use to find a therapist.
00:25:00:12 - 00:25:10:03
They have a search engine. Or you can like filter by all these different criteria for the type of therapist you're looking for, what you need help with, where you live, and so on.
00:25:10:03 - 00:25:10:19
And
00:25:10:19 - 00:25:29:22
I would encourage students to be open to either seeing someone in person or online. Typically, a therapist who's licensed in a certain state can only work with you if you are, like residing in that state, but that means they can work with anyone throughout that state. So that's a little more flexibility that we have post-Covid, that people don't really have the same thing.
00:25:29:22 - 00:25:30:14
Okay.
00:25:30:14 - 00:25:45:02
There are mental health apps, right? So in addition to therapy with people today, someone struggling today, go on your phone, go to the app Store or type in mental health. There's apps like headspace.
00:25:45:02 - 00:25:48:24
So, and I just had a student teach me about Finch.
00:25:48:24 - 00:25:50:14
Do you know what a Tamagotchi is?
00:25:50:14 - 00:25:53:13
No, wait. Is that like a.
00:25:53:15 - 00:26:09:01
Is that okay? Wait, is that like a phone game? Wait, is that something on a video game? No, I know nothing about video games. Oh, no. Okay. I'll stop. You're very close. No, you're right, it's great. I'm loving it. So a time ago, she was like this little digital cat that you used to have, and you would take care of it.
00:26:09:03 - 00:26:21:11
Yes, I do know that. I do know that it's a it was a handheld little thing, right? Yes. Okay. Yep. Okay. So the Finch app, my student just told me about it. She said it really helped her through a really dark time.
00:26:21:11 - 00:26:31:20
And I downloaded it. I checked it out. It looks great. So, Finch, I think the icon is a little bird, and it's a self-care app where you're, like, taking care of the little bird every time you take care of yourself.
00:26:31:20 - 00:26:32:20
So it's super cute
00:26:32:20 - 00:26:33:20
very practical.
00:26:33:20 - 00:26:44:05
I forgot to mention meditation also. So, you know, for folks who I think go to their campus health center or see a primary care doctor, you can talk to them about
00:26:44:05 - 00:26:53:18
their anxiety. It might be the case that they prescribe, anxiety medication. They might refer you to a prescribing provider like a psychiatrist, for example.
00:26:53:21 - 00:26:59:13
And I know the medication is a very sensitive, nuanced topic from family to family. So
00:26:59:13 - 00:27:06:13
it's never something that I force. And again, my bias as a psychologist is I want people to be learning tools and skills and strategies even before we
00:27:06:13 - 00:27:13:23
have the conversation about medication. But I really want students and families to know that it's an option on the table,
00:27:13:23 - 00:27:14:23
because
00:27:14:23 - 00:27:18:20
for some people, medication can be life changing.
00:27:18:22 - 00:27:29:05
That's not the case for everybody. Some people have a long trial and error process to find a good medication for them and for other people. They're like, I tried a few. It wasn't for me. And
00:27:29:05 - 00:27:32:19
that's just the range of experiences that happens realistically. But
00:27:32:19 - 00:27:37:20
my view is like we should try every avenue that could possibly help someone.
00:27:37:22 - 00:27:48:02
So what I didn't hear you say is a strategy is something you mentioned earlier, which is white knuckling it. And that is what so many of our students are doing.
00:27:48:02 - 00:27:57:03
And they think this will pass. This is situational. This is just because, like, I have so much going on right now, I hear that a lot. I have so much going on right now.
00:27:57:03 - 00:28:18:09
I like just can't. And as you mentioned in the beginning, like, you know, sometimes there is just overwhelm and there is just stress. But then I want to remind students that if you're thinking, well, no, it's just because I have really tough courses this semester and I'm also taking this, you know, I signed up for this club in this sport and all this thing.
00:28:18:11 - 00:28:40:03
If the criteria that Doctor Parke listed at the beginning of this episode, those four things, I'm not going to put myself. Yes, I'm going to put myself on the spot. Active recall duration, frequency, intention, intensity and impact. Yes. Got, Look what a great student you are. What? I'm learning some harder habits are paying all those school habits.
00:28:40:05 - 00:29:02:03
Then, then then I want you to go back and rewind this and listen to some of the, next steps that you can take. If you're if you're not even sure. Right. Just start by getting your name on the wait list at the student center. Download an app while you're on the waitlist, or even if you do get into the student counseling center right away.
00:29:02:03 - 00:29:31:08
I think that there's no harm in reminding ourselves that we deserve self-care as much as this little digital bird on an app, right? Which we're probably having a good time with. We as humans deserve the same level of self-care and self-compassion. And and I do. And folks listening. Doctor Parke did not ask me to say this either, but when you, check out her YouTube channel Through the Waters, I'm going to leave all the links to everything that we mentioned here.
00:29:31:08 - 00:29:36:06
Your approach with students, you share these very vulnerable interviews that you have
00:29:36:06 - 00:29:36:15
and
00:29:36:15 - 00:29:39:02
they are such beautiful
00:29:39:02 - 00:29:40:22
souls to be able to
00:29:40:22 - 00:29:42:06
have the
00:29:42:06 - 00:29:47:03
bravery to come onto your show and share their stories,
00:29:47:03 - 00:29:56:09
and their struggles and their triumphs, you know, so sometimes I'm listening to the students on, on your show and I'm like, oh my gosh, like my, my heart is bleeding.
00:29:56:09 - 00:30:22:19
And then they're like, but I learned this strategy. I learned this approach. And it's, you know, the trajectory is is upward. And I know with mental health it's not like implement the strategy and everything is good from here. Right? No one is making that claim. But if you're super low right now, there is a way out of that low space and white knuckling it is not the way.
00:30:22:21 - 00:30:50:17
Because if we don't change anything, nothing will change. And if there's one thing I want people to get out of this episode is that there is help and there's resources for anybody student, professional parents right now listening who are like, whoa, I am low. This is not feel like me, I feel sick, I feel unwell, I feel unable to cope in this season of life, and this season has lasted longer than I wanted.
00:30:50:19 - 00:30:58:05
There are strategies, there are people there to support you. I just want to make that point so, so clear.
00:30:58:05 - 00:31:11:09
so we talked a lot about students, and I know that you focus on college students, but, you know, all it takes is a quick graduation moment. And these college students are now young professionals. Right? So the transition happens pretty quickly.
00:31:11:11 - 00:31:36:19
And so questioning in the workplace a lot of these experiences these or the impact of anxiety in a school academic setting translate over into the work space. So can you offer some insight there. Like if a student does manage somehow to white knuckle it through their college experience and now they're in their first job, but they never addressed their anxiety, what are they up against?
00:31:37:02 - 00:31:52:21
Yeah. And I, I want to start by kind of repeating what you said about white not playing it. Like, it just makes me so sad to think that. I don't want to get emotional on the podcast, but it makes me so sad to think that there are students out there
00:31:52:21 - 00:31:54:22
who really feel like they have to do that.
00:31:55:03 - 00:31:57:24
They have to go it alone or suck it up or,
00:31:57:24 - 00:32:09:06
you know, sometimes I hear students say like, well, everybody feels that way. So and I don't think that's true. And I don't think that we should normalize suffering. Basically, I think is what you want to say, because
00:32:09:06 - 00:32:20:01
what happens after graduation, what happens when if we didn't get help for anxiety as a student, we continue in our anxiety patterns after graduation.
00:32:20:03 - 00:32:27:16
For a lot of the students I talk to, they feel like they were not really prepared for this season. After graduation,
00:32:27:16 - 00:32:28:14
where?
00:32:28:14 - 00:32:34:10
The best way I can say it is like school gives us a structure, right? So it's like,
00:32:34:10 - 00:32:40:08
yeah, four years of this gamified structure. Here's the map, and then you have another four years of this gamified structure.
00:32:40:08 - 00:32:48:05
Here's the map for that level of school. Here's, you know, another four years, maybe two years grad school, whatever someone's path is. Here's the map.
00:32:48:05 - 00:32:54:00
There's a structure is gamified. You can level up, it's a video game. And then all of a sudden you graduate.
00:32:54:00 - 00:32:54:23
Where's the map?
00:32:54:23 - 00:33:03:24
There is no map. And for a lot of students, it feels like the rug gets pulled out from underneath them, or it feels like falling off a place, and they kind of feel like no one told them.
00:33:04:01 - 00:33:14:18
And so I'm not trying to be mean or harsh here, I'm actually trying to give students a heads up that, like, if you go through that, it doesn't mean there's something wrong with you. It doesn't mean that you missed the memo somewhere.
00:33:14:18 - 00:33:16:14
I just feel like we
00:33:16:14 - 00:33:20:11
probably are not giving up about that, right? Like,
00:33:20:11 - 00:33:22:12
even though we we care about them, we love them.
00:33:22:12 - 00:33:25:02
We just sometimes maybe forget to say that, like,
00:33:25:02 - 00:33:27:17
after graduation, there's a lot less of them at.
00:33:27:17 - 00:33:34:03
And so for someone who's anxiety has gone unaddressed, the anxiety finds a whole host of new things to attach to.
00:33:34:03 - 00:33:47:20
So that can be finding job opportunities, figuring out which opportunities to apply for perfectionism around the resumé, anxiety about which jobs to apply for, which jobs not to apply for.
00:33:47:20 - 00:33:50:22
What does it mean if I got an offer? What does it mean if I didn't?
00:33:50:22 - 00:33:53:18
Sheer terror about interviewing.
00:33:53:18 - 00:34:15:12
should I take that job, should I not? Which one should I take if I got multiple offers? And once someone is a working professional who's accepted a role, then the anxiety will fill that space. So then the anxiety is maybe perfectionism about work tasks might be putting a lot more effort or time into tasks than is really necessary.
00:34:15:14 - 00:34:27:24
Might be worrying about what is my supervisor or my boss think of me. How do they see me or my coworkers? How do they see me? Are people negatively evaluating me? Are they judging me? Am I good enough? Do I measure up?
00:34:27:24 - 00:34:36:15
And the fact that workplaces have literal evaluations is not helping this situation, right? It's just fodder for anxiety.
00:34:36:18 - 00:34:46:10
But I think the main message of our conversation is like, people don't have to stay stuck there. You don't have to suffer through that. And I, for one, don't want to normalize it.
00:34:46:10 - 00:34:50:12
I don't want to normalize that. We have to just suffer through life and that's it.
00:34:50:12 - 00:34:52:03
I just want people to hear that,
00:34:52:03 - 00:34:53:04
that there is hope.
00:34:53:04 - 00:35:09:16
There definitely is hope. And I think that if someone were able to somehow, you know, get through college without, addressing the anxiety and there are in the work space now and they're saying, oh, no, like this is that same thing. They thought maybe I just got to get through college and it's all going to get better, right?
00:35:09:16 - 00:35:11:21
If it really, truly, genuinely is,
00:35:11:21 - 00:35:21:17
you know, clinical anxiety, it just doesn't go away. Maybe it takes on a different brand, a different flavor. It shows up differently. You said it fills the space. That's an interesting way,
00:35:21:17 - 00:35:43:10
to say it. So where I come in again is kind of, mirrors a part of the conversation we had earlier is I'm like, okay, well, if we're at work and we are, you know, overwhelmed with our tasks and we can't operate and we can't initiate and we can't execute, oftentimes it's because there's no task management system at all.
00:35:43:13 - 00:36:11:08
And that's contributing to the anxiety. So there's some very practical tactical strategies that sometimes we can implement. And right away there's an, there's a an effect like a result, a good result. But I'm curious if somebody is in an acute state of, oh, no, this is this is hitting me right now. I can openly say I have I have shared on many of my spaces before, I do deal with anxiety.
00:36:11:08 - 00:36:43:14
I cope with it. I have a set of tools now, that involves cat. And so this is cats and solitude and saying no. And, you know, out being outside and we all have our, our unique set of strategies. And I think that it's empowering to have somebody, be alongside with you, facilitating the curious search for those strategies.
00:36:43:14 - 00:36:43:17
And
00:36:43:17 - 00:37:13:02
in a moment, I'm going to ask you to share with our listeners, a valuable resource that you have. But in the moment, if someone is feeling a crescendo of what feels like anxiety in their body, the strategy is not to go quickly, implement a task management system. Right. What can somebody do in the moment to ground themselves so they can get back to a place of emotional regulation where they're not catastrophizing and they say, okay, this is what I'm experiencing.
00:37:13:06 - 00:37:15:14
And now I need to seek help.
00:37:15:14 - 00:37:33:14
So in the moment, in the moment, I would recommend and you're going to hear my voice get all, you know, peaceful and therapy is here. I'm going to go into my peace mode. But okay, I'm ready. Kind of my normal mode anyway. But yeah. So in the moment we need to really go into our.
00:37:33:14 - 00:37:39:23
And this is hard because when we are in that moment of overwhelm and stress, we want to sprint.
00:37:39:23 - 00:37:41:06
We want to run away.
00:37:41:06 - 00:37:44:11
And if we can take a moment to slow ourselves down
00:37:44:11 - 00:37:46:04
and sink into our body,
00:37:46:04 - 00:37:53:21
what is happening in my body right. So for some people, they might be like, I noticed that my heart is fast or my heart is pounding,
00:37:53:21 - 00:37:57:08
or I notice that my feet can't sit still and I'm so jittery.
00:37:57:08 - 00:37:59:04
It's like my body wants to regulate.
00:37:59:04 - 00:38:05:16
Or I notice that there's all these butterflies in my stomach, or a bowling ball in my stomach, or I feel like I can't breathe.
00:38:05:16 - 00:38:11:23
I notice tension in my back or in my arms or in my neck. I notice I have a headache from nauseous or I'm dizzy.
00:38:11:23 - 00:38:14:00
The first step is to really
00:38:14:00 - 00:38:22:12
sink down into our body and have that awareness of what's happening, because if we don't, we are not truly in touch with what's happening.
00:38:22:12 - 00:38:24:17
Our emotions are an embodied experience,
00:38:24:17 - 00:38:28:14
and our body speaks to us in any kind of intuitive language.
00:38:28:14 - 00:38:39:24
I don't want to go off on a tangent about it, but I have a student, for example, I worked with. He was really stressed about like a group project, and she was like, I have all this tension in my shoulders and I just feel like I'm the only one working on this project.
00:38:39:24 - 00:38:40:18
And I was like,
00:38:40:18 - 00:38:43:19
well, it sounds like your body is telling you that you're shouldering
00:38:43:19 - 00:38:44:16
all the work.
00:38:44:16 - 00:38:52:22
So our body is also going to speak to us in that way. And just developing that awareness of what is happening right now slows us down,
00:38:52:22 - 00:38:55:01
brings us back into the present moment,
00:38:55:01 - 00:38:58:04
and helps us to get grounded in what's happening.
00:38:58:13 - 00:39:04:24
And a second step, after we really pause to reflect on what's happening in our body, is to ask, what do I need?
00:39:04:24 - 00:39:12:11
Different from person to person, from moment to moment? I love how you said a curious search. You know, I tell people, treat this like an experiment,
00:39:12:11 - 00:39:15:01
If you need to step outside for five minutes,
00:39:15:01 - 00:39:16:18
maybe you need a few sips of water.
00:39:16:21 - 00:39:18:13
Maybe you need to ask for a friend.
00:39:18:13 - 00:39:21:04
Maybe there's a song that you need to listen to.
00:39:21:04 - 00:39:29:15
For many of my students, the bathroom is like a refuge. Like so you know you need to step outside of class or you're working professional. Like take a bathroom break
00:39:29:15 - 00:39:31:06
go in the story. Breathe.
00:39:31:06 - 00:39:35:22
so for each person, it's just that becoming aware of my body in this moment,
00:39:35:22 - 00:39:53:23
what do I need right now? And treating that as an experiment over time, in the long run, teaches you a lot about what you need in various situations, and it's helpful for you. And what's not helpful for you. And just like we tell students, you know, it's really helpful to learn what you don't want to study or what job you don't want to have.
00:39:53:24 - 00:39:57:03
It's also important to learn what doesn't help you when it comes to
00:39:57:03 - 00:40:00:22
coping with anxiety. So those are the two. Like in the moment pieces.
00:40:00:22 - 00:40:03:04
I have a third one. If people really want to level up
00:40:03:04 - 00:40:11:04
and if they have like a moment to to really reflect, you know, depending on the situation and then the anxiety strikes. But
00:40:11:04 - 00:40:16:08
the third step is to really look at their subjects and then people turn off all their self-talk.
00:40:16:10 - 00:40:18:04
What are you telling yourself?
00:40:18:04 - 00:40:19:16
What are you afraid of?
00:40:19:16 - 00:40:23:11
What are the what ifs running to your mind? How are you interpreting the situation?
00:40:23:11 - 00:40:26:17
Pick one of those questions and just write out what your thoughts are.
00:40:26:17 - 00:40:29:17
Write out the sentences that you were telling yourself in your head
00:40:29:17 - 00:40:33:09
and write them out like on a phone app, which is what I tend to do.
00:40:33:09 - 00:40:35:24
A lot of people find it more helpful to use pen and paper.
00:40:35:24 - 00:40:37:18
Could be one sentence that you write out,
00:40:37:18 - 00:40:51:17
but I want you to then look at that sentence. And for example, like, you know, students will say things like before a presentation, they're like, I'm going to die. That's what I'm telling myself. So, okay, it makes sense to me that you were telling yourself that before a presentation, because it's terrifying for a lot of people.
00:40:51:17 - 00:40:53:19
Write that sentence down, I'm going to die.
00:40:53:19 - 00:40:55:21
This is what you're telling yourself.
00:40:55:21 - 00:41:01:03
What thought could you tell yourself that is more accurate and more helpful?
00:41:01:03 - 00:41:12:11
And those are the kind of the two pillars that I try to guide people toward. I'm oversimplifying this. It usually takes me an hour or more to really, like, get people practicing this muscle, but I'm just trying to explain the overview of like,
00:41:12:11 - 00:41:17:03
what is something you could tell yourself that's more accurate and more helpful?
00:41:17:03 - 00:41:18:24
So in the case of a presentation,
00:41:18:24 - 00:41:25:17
I don't know. It's not about lying to yourself. It's not about stuffing yourself up with unicorns and rainbows. Like you could just say,
00:41:25:17 - 00:41:27:15
this is something I could fix. Or this is a learnable skill, or even I guess, and I know what I'm doing.. something like that.
00:41:35:23 - 00:41:41:00
And it's going to be different for each person, like what's life giving for them and what's helpful for them.
00:41:41:02 - 00:41:47:22
But yeah, what's more accurate? What's meaningful for. And then for some students I work with, they want to write that down.
00:41:47:22 - 00:41:50:22
For some of them, they actually speak that thought out loud.
00:41:50:22 - 00:42:00:01
You know, when you're by yourself, because none of us need to be seen talking to ourselves, going down the hallway or whatever, but, yeah, like, if you're alone,
00:42:00:01 - 00:42:05:21
say it out loud yourself or when you're driving your car or whatever, speak that thought out loud over yourself.
00:42:05:21 - 00:42:24:07
So what I'm hearing is that it's important to take a pause to identify what it is physically that we're feeling, to ask ourselves what it is that we need, whether it's a hug, whether it's five minutes outside and then if you're feeling or any number of things, and then if we're feeling up for it to say, what is it?
00:42:24:07 - 00:42:47:22
What is the narrative that I'm telling myself, pick one sentence, what am I telling myself? Writing it down and maybe asking ourselves, is this catastrophic thinking right? Am I really going to die before this presentation? And to replace that thought with something that's more grounded in reality, such as, I did my best on this presentation, and I'm going to do my best standing up there, and I will not die.
00:42:47:24 - 00:43:01:11
I will not die. I have a question that I feel like you're going to have some, everything you've shared on this interview so far has been fantastic, but I have a feeling that you're going to, you're not done with your little nuggets of wisdom yet.
00:43:01:11 - 00:43:08:24
So my question to you is what is missing from the common advice that's out there about overcoming anxiety?
00:43:08:24 - 00:43:12:21
I think the piece that most people are missing out on is exposure.
00:43:12:21 - 00:43:14:01
And so
00:43:14:01 - 00:43:16:09
as a psychologist and someone who
00:43:16:09 - 00:43:24:01
is really well versed in not only the clinical work one on one with people and the families, but also well-versed in
00:43:24:01 - 00:43:35:16
being trained in the research, the actual evidence base about, like what helps students move forward and what helps people in general, and for working professionals, including when they struggle with anxiety.
00:43:35:16 - 00:43:38:21
Exposure practice is a really key ingredient in the research literature, and
00:43:40:22 - 00:43:51:11
I don't know if it's this way in every field, but at least in clinical psychology, there's a schism between what we see as effective in the research and then what people are actually accessing when they get help.
00:43:51:11 - 00:43:58:21
And for me, I feel a really deep conviction about that, that I want to try to bridge that gap and build solutions that are
00:43:58:21 - 00:44:03:02
online that people can access anytime, anywhere in that evidence based. Because perfect exposure, I should probably define that for you. But exposure is basically a process where people face their fears and little by little, step by step, week by week, they use coping skills that things learned,
00:44:16:11 - 00:44:21:16
and they apply those coping skills to exposure practice to take small steps outside their comfort zone.
00:44:21:16 - 00:44:26:20
And what happens over time is that their comfort zone goes from looking like this to getting bigger and bigger.
And what used to scare them either becomes no big deal or even becomes boring to them.
And that is the piece that is really tragic to me. Like that to me is the most powerful piece. When I work with people where they really build confidence, they really move forward and they get out of the long term anxiety cycles when they learn how to practice exposure.
And at the same time, that's the piece that I feel like most people miss out on,
even when they're in therapy. By the way, that's interesting because it seems contradictory to what we mentioned earlier, which is, when someone is feeling anxiety is the most common, you know, natural impulses avoidance.
And here we're saying is, well, let's combat that with exposure. That in the context of, of school, are we looking like, okay, well, every if you have test anxiety every time you're facing a test, we're going to deliberately and intentionally use our tools, our grounding practices, our, you know,
breathing exercises and things like that. Is it is it is that in my understanding, this correct?
Yeah. I mean, any fear that people have obviously anything from
test anxiety to sitting in a classroom and walking off campus, it could be driving a car, having a meeting with their boss. It could be a fear of snakes. There's a lot of
research supporting the idea that exposure is helpful, and what we do is we start with the smallest version that they can tolerate.
And so for some people, that's actually closing their eyes. And like, I'm going to use a snake as an example because I feel like it's
hopefully a little less activity for people. Even though I hate snakes. We're just having a friendly conversation. I'm in. Yeah, there's no snakes here. Okay. Let's just teddy bears, let's say so because you have teddy bears, they might actually close their eyes and we're going to actually have them visualize a teddy bear.
Like that might be where they start.
And then we might have them, you know, sit way, way, way far away across a football field from a teddy bear, depending on how instead of sitting sideways.
And then maybe next time they practice the teddy bears 50 yards away.
00:46:25:01 - 00:46:28:13
Football fields is 100 yards. It's about right. It is. Yep. Okay.
Sorry. I'm a soccer person. American football. Okay. Anyway, so then we might have them at 50 yards away from the teddy bear next time, 25 yards.
Next time, five yards. Next time we might actually have them sit next to the teddy bear.
And then the next ten minute actually snuggle with the teddy bear for
one minute and so on.
And so we're just progressively approaching whatever we their goal is of what they want to be able to do. But I'd say it's a guided process. It's practicing that and working up to that. And you can do that with
pretty much any fear that I could think of.
Wow. So it sounds to me like this is just another piece of evidence to people listening that you do not have to stay in the situation that you're in, with the feelings that you have with perhaps the despair that you feel like is going to be yours for the rest of your life.
There are a whole gamut of strategies that we have covered from, you know, just paying attention in your body to taking a pause to reaching out to your student resource center, to taking a bathroom break at work, to reaching out to a, a professional and maybe using something like exposure therapy. There are so many resources. Speaking of resources, Doctor Park, I know that you have some incredible resources to share.
So if people are looking for more information on this topic, which lets me tell you everybody can use a lesson or two about how to,
00:47:54:21 - 00:48:01:17
handle anxiety and emotional regulation. So can you tell people what it is that you that you have and where they can find you?
Sure. So a good place to find me online is throughthewaters.org.
That's my organization where I help teens and college students through online mental health education to move forward. Have a free training for parents where they can learn three keys for helping their student
00:48:17:10 - 00:48:26:13
move forward out of anxiety and they'll also learn more about my signature anxiety program. So I teach a whole host of tools and skills and strategies in there.
And I also teach exposure, which is really important to me. Like I just said. So,
if folks are on YouTube or Instagram, they can just search for Through the Waters and my logo is a blue brave. That's awesome. So for parents listening,
the free training that you mentioned, that is, a resource for parents who, if you have children who are,
experiencing anxiety or you feel like they could use some support and maybe you're not quite sure what the next step is, and that training is for you in that does also, explain the course that, Doctor Parke offers as a way to make mental health more accessible to
our college students because we just mention those wait lists, which are which are unfortunate. But Doctor Park, you have been so valuable today. I want it to stay professional and not take notes. Because I want to maintain eye contact and not have my elbow moving in the corner. Good thing this is recorded and I'm going to be editing this and taking notes myself, because I think some of these tools,
where sometimes we hear them and we think, oh, I knew to do that, but then we don't do that.
And it's hard to access the tools that we know in the back of my mind or available to us. So this is a reminder to everybody, whether you have a full blown, you know, clinical anxiety disorder or you are just really struggling to stay above water right now with all the things going on, don't stare. Stay where you are, make a change.
There is something that you can do to end or decrease the suffering at this point. Right now, even if it's,
some breathwork, even if it's a walk outside, even if it's a snuggle with a pet. I shall neither confirm nor deny if I have
cats under this desk. As we record. And on that note, Doctor Bark, thank you so much for joining us today.
I would love to have you back on the show, because I feel like we opened a can of worms for so many potential conversations. Would you be up for that?
I would love that. And I would love to have you on my YouTube channel. I'd love to have a conversation. So, thank you for inviting me into your house.
00:50:35:08 - 00:50:40:10
I'd love to have you over to my house. You got it? You got it. Well. Thank you. Take care into
All the links that we mentioned today will be in the show notes, at Learn and Work smarter.com/podcast/83. And see you next time.
00:50:49:23 - 00:51:08:15
All right. So that concludes my conversation with Doctor Park. I know that this is a good one. I was not joking at the end of that interview where I said that I'm wish I could have been taking notes, at the same time that I was having the conversation. But I think the anxiety is not something that we talk about enough with meaning.
00:51:08:15 - 00:51:45:04
I think it I'm feeling anxious. I have anxiety about that. I feel like it's a term that we throw around without understanding or really thinking about the impact that it can have on our day to day lives, whether we are students or whether we are professionals. And I said this in my conversation with Doctor Parke that, everything I teach here on this show and in schoolhabits university and in my YouTube channel and on the blog, and all of my resources is designed to help students and professionals get more control over their lives, over their systems, over their schools, and over their professional identities.
00:51:45:06 - 00:52:14:17
And as we talked about in the conversation, it's kind of a chicken before the egg piece, right? So if you're feeling anxiety and then it's hard to implement and use these systems, and if you don't have these systems and you're going to feel more anxious. So I think that this conversation today provided such value because it gave a holistic view of how all of these pieces work together, of the mental health, the perspective, the mindset piece, and also the tactical, practical, strategic piece.
00:52:14:19 - 00:52:34:17
I hope you enjoyed today's show. Again, all of the links to everything we mentioned, including Doctor Parke's free training for parents and her signature anxiety course, can be found at LearnandWorksmarter.com/podcast/83. Thank you for your time and thank you for listening today. And remember, never stop learning.
